So I'm watching this town hall...

[R13]

My question is, was it this heated and was there this much mudslingging in the early 90's? I mean this isn't even the Universal plan, it isn't war, it isn't abortion...it doesn't seem like that kind of an issue, but it's turned just as bad as those issues.

[centennialdawg]

The only question I have with any of this, since most of you all tend to not agree with the way these protesters are handling these meetings is, "Didn't our ancestors do the same exact things as these protesters are doing when they started questioning England's actions against us before we declared our independence and isn't this one of the freedoms that our ancestors fought for: The right to voice their own opinions in order to sway the eventual outcome?"

[Biggin]

The only question I have with any of this, since most of you all tend to not agree with the way these protesters are handling these meetings is, "Didn't our ancestors do the same exact things as these protesters are doing when they started questioning England's actions against us before we declared our independence and isn't this one of the freedoms that our ancestors fought for: The right to voice their own opinions in order to sway the eventual outcome?"

wow, no.

thats not a good comparison at all.

the founding fathers were doing what they thought was right, trying to secure their freedoms.

these people are going to these events for the sole purpose of causing chaos and ruining the meetings, and they are being funded by huge insurance companies and private businesses.

to compare the great men of the american revolution to these scumbags who are misinforming people on purpose to try and keep their cash cow alive is almost offensive.

the protesters are not protesting for their rights of speech and other constitutional rights, they are there to spread lies and try and keep their parents(insurance companies, etc...) fat in the wallet.

[MikeJones]

So this is class warfare?

[Gotch]

My question is, was it this heated and was there this much mudslingging in the early 90's? I mean this isn't even the Universal plan, it isn't war, it isn't abortion...it doesn't seem like that kind of an issue, but it's turned just as bad as those issues.

No, it wasn't nearly this heated. That was probably because there were nowhere near as many people who supported a major change in the system at that time and it was never really close to becoming reality.

[TheBeast]

She didn't stop to realize that Medicare IS govt run health care.

Your right and Medicare is the perfect example that the government has no clue on how to run anything concerning healthcare.

* Medicare is essentially compulsory. People who refuse to join Medicare Part A are not allowed to receive their earned Social Security benefits.
* Medicare patients cannot pay cash for care. A 1997 law (the Balanced Budget Act, section 4507) forbids private contracts between patients and doctors. With few exceptions, Medicare recipients cannot pay cash for a Medicare-covered service that Medicare denies.
* Initially refusing to enroll in Medicare Part B leads to costly penalty. Seniors are automatically enrolled in Medicare Part B. Those who refuse and later change their minds pay higher premiums - 10 percent higher for EACH year they were not enrolled.
* Citizens do not have a right to their Medicare contributions (payroll taxes). There is no binding contract between the government and citizens for future payment of Medicare benefits. Congress can alter or eliminate Medicare benefits at their discretion.
* Medicare comes in three parts. Medicare Part A (hospitalization insurance) is funded through payroll taxes. Medicare Part B (supplemental medical insurance for physician services, diagnostic tests, and other services) is funded approximately 73 percent by federal income taxes and 25 percent by Medicare recipients. Medicare Part C (Medicare+Choice) created in 1997, has turned into primarily a HMO managed care option.
* Medicare dependency is growing. While there are about 40 million people now enrolled in Medicare, approximately 77 million babyboomers will begin entering Medicare in 2011.
* Medicare faces insufficient funding. While there are approximately 4 workers/taxpayers for each Medicare recipient today, there will be only 2.3 workers/taxpayer for each Medicare recipient in 2030.
* Medicare is heading toward bankruptcy. According to current estimates, it will be insolvent by 2026.
* Medicare is not a catastrophic health insurance policy. It doesn't pay for hospitalization longer than 150 days, and there is no cap on out of pocket expenses. "Medigap" insurance is often purchased to protect against huge medical bills not covered by Medicare.
* Medicare does not cover the cost of long term care and nursing home care - unless it is related to a hospitalization or other urgent medical care.
* Medicare pays only about half of all health care costs of seniors. In 1997, 39,840 seniors paid an average of $22,124, either in out of pocket costs or through supplemental insurance.
* Medicare frequently denies payment. In 2001, 3.7 million appeals were filed for denial of payment by Medicare Part B. Despite a 2000 law requiring swift processing of appeals, a 2003 report by the General Accounting Office found significant delays in appeals processing.
* Medicare has not significantly decreased out of pocket payments for seniors. In 2000, a study by the American Association of Retired Persons (AARP) found seniors paying an average of $2,510 per year - about 19 percent of their income - on out of pocket costs. This does not include home care or nursing home care. In 1964, a year before Medicare passed, seniors were paying 20 percent of their income on health care.
* Medicare wastes taxpayer money. Over the past 7 years, almost $107 billion in improper payments have been made for services provided to recipients of the traditional fee-for-service Medicare program. CCHC calculated that the $13.3 billion loss in 2002 equals $36.4 million per day.
* Doctors, hospitals and others who accept Medicare patients are at enormous risk. There are over 130,000 pages of Medicare regulations that must be meticulously followed. In 1996, Congress made health care fraud a federal crime - a felony. Even minor billing errors can be considered fraud. Fines start at $10,000 per violation.
* Medicare threatens patient privacy. The federal government requires home health agencies to regularly send private data on Medicare recipients. This is called the Outcomes Assessment Information System (OASIS) In addition, doctors and hospitals that make inadvertent errors in billing Medicare can be forced to hand over the patient's entire medical record for investigation of fraud.
* Scarce Medicare dollars are used to fund medical education. In 1996, Medicare paid $7.1 billion toward the training of physicians.

[TheBeast]

wow, no.

thats not a good comparison at all.

the founding fathers were doing what they thought was right, trying to secure their freedoms.

And these people aren't trying to secure their freedoms. For whatever reason they are very concerned and need more from their congressmen and senators than, "Read the bill, read the bill. What good is it to read a bill that will take two day and two lawyers to understand it?" Exactly dumbass that is why you read the bill and have two lawyers to understand it instead of just voting on it because your mesiah told you to.

[CoeburnCane]

Your right and Medicare is the perfect example that the government has no clue on how to run anything concerning healthcare.

* Medicare is essentially compulsory. People who refuse to join Medicare Part A are not allowed to receive their earned Social Security benefits.
* Medicare patients cannot pay cash for care. A 1997 law (the Balanced Budget Act, section 4507) forbids private contracts between patients and doctors. With few exceptions, Medicare recipients cannot pay cash for a Medicare-covered service that Medicare denies.
* Initially refusing to enroll in Medicare Part B leads to costly penalty. Seniors are automatically enrolled in Medicare Part B. Those who refuse and later change their minds pay higher premiums - 10 percent higher for EACH year they were not enrolled.
* Citizens do not have a right to their Medicare contributions (payroll taxes). There is no binding contract between the government and citizens for future payment of Medicare benefits. Congress can alter or eliminate Medicare benefits at their discretion.
* Medicare comes in three parts. Medicare Part A (hospitalization insurance) is funded through payroll taxes. Medicare Part B (supplemental medical insurance for physician services, diagnostic tests, and other services) is funded approximately 73 percent by federal income taxes and 25 percent by Medicare recipients. Medicare Part C (Medicare+Choice) created in 1997, has turned into primarily a HMO managed care option.
* Medicare dependency is growing. While there are about 40 million people now enrolled in Medicare, approximately 77 million babyboomers will begin entering Medicare in 2011.
* Medicare faces insufficient funding. While there are approximately 4 workers/taxpayers for each Medicare recipient today, there will be only 2.3 workers/taxpayer for each Medicare recipient in 2030.
* Medicare is heading toward bankruptcy. According to current estimates, it will be insolvent by 2026.
* Medicare is not a catastrophic health insurance policy. It doesn't pay for hospitalization longer than 150 days, and there is no cap on out of pocket expenses. "Medigap" insurance is often purchased to protect against huge medical bills not covered by Medicare.
* Medicare does not cover the cost of long term care and nursing home care - unless it is related to a hospitalization or other urgent medical care.
* Medicare pays only about half of all health care costs of seniors. In 1997, 39,840 seniors paid an average of $22,124, either in out of pocket costs or through supplemental insurance.
* Medicare frequently denies payment. In 2001, 3.7 million appeals were filed for denial of payment by Medicare Part B. Despite a 2000 law requiring swift processing of appeals, a 2003 report by the General Accounting Office found significant delays in appeals processing.
* Medicare has not significantly decreased out of pocket payments for seniors. In 2000, a study by the American Association of Retired Persons (AARP) found seniors paying an average of $2,510 per year - about 19 percent of their income - on out of pocket costs. This does not include home care or nursing home care. In 1964, a year before Medicare passed, seniors were paying 20 percent of their income on health care.
* Medicare wastes taxpayer money. Over the past 7 years, almost $107 billion in improper payments have been made for services provided to recipients of the traditional fee-for-service Medicare program. CCHC calculated that the $13.3 billion loss in 2002 equals $36.4 million per day.
* Doctors, hospitals and others who accept Medicare patients are at enormous risk. There are over 130,000 pages of Medicare regulations that must be meticulously followed. In 1996, Congress made health care fraud a federal crime - a felony. Even minor billing errors can be considered fraud. Fines start at $10,000 per violation.
* Medicare threatens patient privacy. The federal government requires home health agencies to regularly send private data on Medicare recipients. This is called the Outcomes Assessment Information System (OASIS) In addition, doctors and hospitals that make inadvertent errors in billing Medicare can be forced to hand over the patient's entire medical record for investigation of fraud.
* Scarce Medicare dollars are used to fund medical education. In 1996, Medicare paid $7.1 billion toward the training of physicians.

OK--I'll bite.

Let's assume all of those copy/paste bullet points from a conservative website obviously is all true.

Why then, if you go up to darn near ANY senior citizen on Medicare in this country, and you ask them if they want their Medicare taken away from them or changed--why is the answer almost 100% absolutely not?

If Medicare's that bad, wouldn't have Medicare gone the way of the dinosaur and the health insurance companies seen an opportunity to make money by offering policies to the elderly? And, by that token, wouldn't have the "compulsory" nature of it with the withholding of SS benefits already been taken on by the AARP in the courts and overturned?

That's the problem with any of these C/P bullet points...no one takes the time to question them and see if they make any common horse sense. And when someone does (like me), they're a biased liberal. WTF ever.

[Gotch]

^Good post from Cane

Here is Chris Matthews getting a bit over the top in an interview with the guy who had the gun. The guy is clearly rational and not a threat. I still don't think it was a good idea, but he kind of gets the best of Matthews here IMO. He seems better informed on the facts than Matthews and kind of shuts Matthews down as they go along.

YouTube - Chris Matthews Interviews Gun Carrying American from Obama Town Hall

[simple man]

And these people aren't trying to secure their freedoms. For whatever reason they are very concerned and need more from their congressmen and senators than, "Read the bill, read the bill. What good is it to read a bill that will take two day and two lawyers to understand it?" Exactly dumbass that is why you read the bill and have two lawyers to understand it instead of just voting on it because your mesiah told you to.

We don't have freedoms- the have all been spent on useless funding of wars. If we could toss out the liars and endless language, the ones who work for a living could sort thru what the country could afford in 20 mins. By the time we are done in Afganistan no one will be able to afford to live past the first case of the flu. We should have given Bush the SS , put it in the stock market and "grown" our money. Then we all could be making wetback money. This next war will break the USA and perhaps we will learn to mind our own biz and care for our own folks first.